Comments on: A Short Note On Dawkins And Anti-Fantasy Reading For Children Sentiments At #TAM8

By: Stardust

Stardust — Fri, 23 Jul 2010 11:05:37 +0000

Bill, etc, here is a link where RD first speculates as to the harm of Harry Potter. As I understand it from TAM, Grothe was just following on what RD said earlier at the press conference.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/3255972/Harry-Potter-fails-to-cast-spell-over-Professor-Richard-Dawkins.html

By: Made of Stars

Made of Stars — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:45:49 +0000

My 6 year old has read all sorts, including his first couple of Potter books. He’s going to read them at school, or after-school care, so why fight it? If one wants to prevent kids reading fantasy, there’s going to be very little left by the time you exclude everything from Thomas the talking train through to balrogs.

It’s fascinating to see agenticity at work – the drive to believe in controlling powers – but I take his excitement in reading these books as an opportunity to get him thinking and talking about what’s real and what’s not.

And when it comes down to it, I’m stoked that he enjoys reading.

By: What if Harry Potter was a skeptic? | Young Australian Skeptics

What if Harry Potter was a skeptic? | Young Australian Skeptics — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 23:01:50 +0000

[...] read it already, even in the light of supposed recent comments by Richard Dawkins at TAM8 that revealed him to be against children’s fantasy novels. Dawkins, this is a fantasy story that [...]

By: Sean the Blogonaut

Sean the Blogonaut — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:22:31 +0000

@ Bill,

So we can blame DJ then

By: Bill

Bill — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:00:43 +0000

DJ Grothe asked if Dawkins thought there was a link between childhood fantasy literature and adult credulity. It was then that the conversation hit that topic as I described.

By: podblack

podblack — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 12:48:50 +0000

Exactly my point, Bill – if he did suggest it, how could he suggest such a study start – and on what grounds does such a claim start anyway?

By: Bill

Bill — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 12:38:13 +0000

As someone who was at TAM8 and attended the interview of Prof Dawkins, I would like to point out that although DJ Grothe was trying to corner Dawkins into saying odd things, Prof Dawkins did not indicate that he thought fantasy literature caused credulity. He said that he didn’t know and that a study on the matter would be enlightening.

By: Peter Bowditch

Peter Bowditch — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 04:49:02 +0000

One of the best books I remember reading as a child was “The Wind In The Willows”. Maybe that’s why my skepticism these days is tainted by beliefs in car-driving toads and talking moles and voles. You will notice I am being forthright here and avoiding weasel words.

By: Graham

Graham — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 00:55:26 +0000

Curious. I would say that fantasy encourages imagination, and science cannot function without imagination.

By: Tabletop Transitional – What if Harry Potter was a skeptic? « Homologous Legs

Sun, 11 Jul 2010 23:35:50 +0000

[...] Transitional – What if Harry Potter was a skeptic? Update: It has come to my attention that Richard Dawkins may have made some comments at TAM8 about fantasy novels, such as Harry Potter, damaging children’s critical thinking skills and giving them false [...]

By: Naon Tiotami

Naon Tiotami — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 23:25:55 +0000

Wow, I didn’t actually know about this when I published my blog post on “Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality”. Talk about a coincidence! :p Cheers for the link, Kylie.

All I’m going to say about the matter is that I’m going to wait until the interview comes out before I make any judgments about Dawkins or what he said. People have been burned before, criticising people before they actually knew what they were REALLY saying.

It doesn’t sound promising though, I must admit. :/

By: podblack

podblack — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 14:22:17 +0000

“Cognitive Dissonance in others induces really bad migraines for me; I can’t imagine the headache it must give Dawkins.”

I found Dawkins to be polite, forthright and attentive to people and responded in a similar manner, even if they were spouting horrific insults and telling him openly that they despised and worked against everything he stood for. What I hope is that his interview with DJ Grothe won’t fire up some of the very odd and unsubstantiated claims that I have seen in regards to seeing fantasy in fiction for children as ‘part of the problem’, with no evidence for it.

By: podblack

podblack — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 14:19:27 +0000

“I haven’t seen any skeptics – let alone Dr Dawkins – actually advocating censorship of these books (though maybe you have).”

I have not seen Dawkins do that – I sincerely hope that he wasn’t. :/

By: chunkylimey

chunkylimey — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 14:09:39 +0000

Funnily enough I came to Atheism (and later Skepticism) via Fantasy and Sci Fi novels. Especially fantasy and myths. It was reading fantasy stories and knowing they were “fake” that made me question the validity of the Bible since it was clearly just as fantastic and fanciful and as Lord Of The Rings.

If Dawkins has made a bit of a goofy statement it might be because he’s struggling with the issue that so many people believe weird things from the Bible unquestioningly but are very clear that Harry Potter is fantasy etc. Cognitive Dissonance in others induces really bad migraines for me; I can’t imagine the headache it must give Dawkins.

By: Mick

Mick — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 13:50:49 +0000

Which on the face of it seems an absurd argument (the same claims were made about Enid Blyton’s books, which I grew up on), but I haven’t seen any skeptics – let alone Dr Dawkins – actually advocating censorship of these books (though maybe you have).

By: podblack

podblack — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 13:45:29 +0000

Mick – “I’m certain that Dawkins never advocated censoring fantastic children’s literature, and can’t imagine him ever doing so. That strikes me as an absurd inference to draw.”
Read the comments I made again – I have certainly read skeptics express the ‘Harry Potter damages literacy skills’ claim. So has DJ Grothe, it appears.

By: Mick

Mick — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 13:39:55 +0000

Obviously I’m not in Las Vegas so I’m not privy to the full details of the conversation but I’m certain that Dawkins never advocated censoring fantastic children’s literature, and can’t imagine him ever doing so. That strikes me as an absurd inference to draw.

By: Bruce

Bruce — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 13:32:13 +0000

While not wanting to commit myself to a version of events from an event that I wasn’t present at, I’d have to say that Richards above account is looking pretty credible. That’s based on the last time this anti-fanty story raised its head – Dawkins ceding that fantasy being harmless is also a defensible position.

Dawkins was (the last time this flared up at least) only tentatively speculating.

By: Bing

Bing — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 13:17:47 +0000

It sounds like he’s saying cookbooks cause obesity. I look forward to reading it (in some form). Can someone ask him if his speech will be appearing in some other form, as there is a lot of interest on the Internet about it?

By: tsuken

tsuken — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 13:17:24 +0000

I recall Dawkins said this pretty clearly in his interview with Andrew Denton late last year (? – I remember I was wrapping presents, so I think it was coming up to Christmas). Anyway, he definitely did express the view that fantasy/magical stories might lead to magical and irrational thinking.

“Bollocks” was my first (considered and rational) reaction I spent much of my youth with my nose buried in one fantasy book or another – and I’m no more irrational than average (Perhaps I balanced it out with all the scifi.)

We should be more concerned about horrid sexist children’s books – like Disney’s Princess collection which I unsuspectingly allowed my daughter to get this morning.