From Dr Pamela Gay, via a Facebook comment:
“Dawkins expressed concern that if kids read fantasy it would encourage false belief and advocated that we need sci fiction, pitched a book he is writing over and over, and argued kids probably shouldn’t read fantasy. It was surreal. Search on tam8 on twitter to see others comments. It totally caught me off guard.”
From my own experience as an English teacher, the first thing that came to mind were the reading lessons devised by the English Department for over ten years – that revolved around just plain reading.
We would devote, in the lower years of high-school, one entire lesson to reading. Students, in regular consultation with the librarians as head-teachers, sought out books, discussed books, read magazines, listened to ‘books on CD’, wrote reviews and just generally read independently, with partners, with guests or teachers reading aloud. To have a dedicated lesson of just one hour a week may have seemed a waste of school time to some – but more often than not, I’d have people ask whether it could be extended in some fashion. It is this that leads to after-school bookclubs and even cafes being created – and certainly many adults now attend such gatherings.
Is it indulgent or is it important to dedicate yourself to enjoying or working on reading? I could go into the research that I’ve done for various reasons, but it may be best at this point to direct you to the blog-posts that I’ve written over the years about ‘Skeptical Books for Children‘, the works of manga-artist Sara Mayhew, Michael Stackpole, Chris Wisnia and Jim Ottaviani (all interviewed by Skepticality) – and this interview with Parenting Beyond Belief author, Dale McGowan:
We do this in part by exposing kids to the widest possible range of ideas and opinions, including, but not limited to, humanistic, secular texts. If we have nourished a ravenous curiosity to understand the world, they will do the rest…
…It is something of a challenge to find resources that are Guaranteed 100% Hoohah-Free. You do your best, but rather than fret too much about this or that departure from the party line, I recommend raising kids who can encounter the occasional bit of hoohah and know what to do with it. If we keep them hermetically sealed away from nonsense, how will they respond when they meet it on the road—as they inevitably will?
I’m also reminded of something a friend said to me about creating resources for children too – how one ‘behaviourist’ approach is to say ‘don’t do something a dead guy can do’. Rather than take a negative approach, by giving avoidance-tactics (‘a dead guy can avoid making stereotypical characters, a dead guy can prevent themselves from making this mistake’) start proposing ‘can-dos’.
Should the censorship of fantasy be a goal, in order to promote critical thinking? I’d say no. And I’d say that for those who rubbish the genre fantasy, to come up with any kind of justification based upon research that will back that up, beyond ‘Oh, but I HEARD that Harry Potter has set back literacy levels!‘ As Dr Gay herself alluded to on Twitter… isn’t the removal of Harry Potter what the extremist fundamentalist religions do?
Is there any evidence that being fantasy-fiction readers – as opposed to the condition of ‘fantasy-prone’, which is something different – damages the ability to reason? What base-line research for the start of a literature review (no pun intended) could Dawkins use? If this was a study – what kind of survey would he use that would ascertain that it is through the reading of fantasy books first and foremost – that led to consolidating belief in… what, fairies? Would imaginative play and imaginary friends be seen as pathological? Where would you draw the eventual line?
Overall, considering the students’ different life histories, and their cultural and social affiliations; even the very notion of ‘intervention’ or ‘treatment’ via curtailing education is the imposition of particular conditions by the researcher on the subjects of the experiment – will it allow an opportunity for dialogue or allow them to participate in defining their own conditions as ‘a reader’? An experimental methodology that presumes the goals of education in general (and of the experiment in general) that are already known, since the outcome variables are pre-defined without consultation with the participating subjects – is that open to a spirit of inquiry or social justice?
I would say that is a great disservice to call paranormal believers socially marginal, subjectively oriented, cognitively deficient or psychologically dysfunctional, based upon previous research done on such beliefs. I would add the same if they’re being based upon the notion that it ‘begins in childhood and the fantasy-genre is a likely culprit that will start you on such a path’. To censor the the development of literacy skills on those kinds of grounds – is anti-education. I sincerely hope that was not Professor Dawkins’ intention.
















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Sorry people – reopened comments if you’d like to leave some/ your own recommendations!
I would like to get a transcript of what he said so that I am not criticism him for something that’s taken out of context. That being said what is he smoking?
To important books in my life that I wouldn’t want to do without are The Lord of the Rings and the God delusion
Well, there’s a direct quote by Dr Pamela Gay and a tweet from the time. So, as I say at the conclusion – I hope that he didn’t mean what I think he means!
two damn it
Like Sean, I hope there is more to the context. If not, I’d love to know his thinking behind this speculation. I can’t for the life of me think of how one might even begin to think there might be a causative link between a non-scientific epistemology and reading fiction. As you said, Kylie, I’m not even sure where to begin in terms of research. Mere correlations would say very little. In fact, I’d be willing to bet a lot of outspoken skeptics got into skepticism while indulging in a love of spec-fiction escapism. As an educator, I can’t think of better ways of teaching the evaluation of context than by using spec-fiction.
I truly hope this doesn’t become another example a scientist’s authority giving weight to an unsupported notion that lies well outside of their area of expertise.
At the education workshop, which Dawkins attended, Prof Drescher explicitly went through my term’s program which included ‘Macbeth’. I wonder what he thought of that (and the fact that Teller has coordinated a production of that very paranormal-play!) :p
He didn’t take a position based on evidence, etc but was curious if fantastic literature primed kids for later belief in the fantastic.
He definitely stated that he enjoys sci fi and sees the usefulness of imaginitive thinking, which he did say may also be helped with fantastic literature. Basically, he did not take a position on it, as he is a scientist amf did not have the data.
On his mentioning his book? It isn’t like he was advertising it – he mentioned it 3 or 4 times, at least a couple times in answer to questions about what he was working on now.
Twitter quotes are not sufficient to understand the context of that casual interview style piece.
[RICHARD - READ THE BLOG POST AGAIN - I'M QUOTING PAMELA GAY FROM HER FACEBOOK PAGE WHERE SHE WROTE MORE THAN 140 CHARACTERS. KS.]
I recall Dawkins said this pretty clearly in his interview with Andrew Denton late last year (? – I remember I was wrapping presents, so I think it was coming up to Christmas). Anyway, he definitely did express the view that fantasy/magical stories might lead to magical and irrational thinking.
“Bollocks” was my first (considered and rational) reaction
I spent much of my youth with my nose buried in one fantasy book or another – and I’m no more irrational than average
(Perhaps I balanced it out with all the scifi.)
We should be more concerned about horrid sexist children’s books – like Disney’s Princess collection which I unsuspectingly allowed my daughter to get this morning.
It sounds like he’s saying cookbooks cause obesity. I look forward to reading it (in some form). Can someone ask him if his speech will be appearing in some other form, as there is a lot of interest on the Internet about it?
HJ
While not wanting to commit myself to a version of events from an event that I wasn’t present at, I’d have to say that Richards above account is looking pretty credible. That’s based on the last time this anti-fanty story raised its head – Dawkins ceding that fantasy being harmless is also a defensible position.
Dawkins was (the last time this flared up at least) only tentatively speculating.
Obviously I’m not in Las Vegas so I’m not privy to the full details of the conversation but I’m certain that Dawkins never advocated censoring fantastic children’s literature, and can’t imagine him ever doing so. That strikes me as an absurd inference to draw.
Mick – “I’m certain that Dawkins never advocated censoring fantastic children’s literature, and can’t imagine him ever doing so. That strikes me as an absurd inference to draw.”
Read the comments I made again – I have certainly read skeptics express the ‘Harry Potter damages literacy skills’ claim. So has DJ Grothe, it appears.
Which on the face of it seems an absurd argument (the same claims were made about Enid Blyton’s books, which I grew up on), but I haven’t seen any skeptics – let alone Dr Dawkins – actually advocating censorship of these books (though maybe you have).
Funnily enough I came to Atheism (and later Skepticism) via Fantasy and Sci Fi novels. Especially fantasy and myths. It was reading fantasy stories and knowing they were “fake” that made me question the validity of the Bible since it was clearly just as fantastic and fanciful and as Lord Of The Rings.
If Dawkins has made a bit of a goofy statement it might be because he’s struggling with the issue that so many people believe weird things from the Bible unquestioningly but are very clear that Harry Potter is fantasy etc. Cognitive Dissonance in others induces really bad migraines for me; I can’t imagine the headache it must give Dawkins.
“I haven’t seen any skeptics – let alone Dr Dawkins – actually advocating censorship of these books (though maybe you have).”
I have not seen Dawkins do that – I sincerely hope that he wasn’t. :/
“Cognitive Dissonance in others induces really bad migraines for me; I can’t imagine the headache it must give Dawkins.”
I found Dawkins to be polite, forthright and attentive to people and responded in a similar manner, even if they were spouting horrific insults and telling him openly that they despised and worked against everything he stood for. What I hope is that his interview with DJ Grothe won’t fire up some of the very odd and unsubstantiated claims that I have seen in regards to seeing fantasy in fiction for children as ‘part of the problem’, with no evidence for it.
Wow, I didn’t actually know about this when I published my blog post on “Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality”. Talk about a coincidence! :p Cheers for the link, Kylie.
All I’m going to say about the matter is that I’m going to wait until the interview comes out before I make any judgments about Dawkins or what he said. People have been burned before, criticising people before they actually knew what they were REALLY saying.
It doesn’t sound promising though, I must admit. :/
Curious. I would say that fantasy encourages imagination, and science cannot function without imagination.
One of the best books I remember reading as a child was “The Wind In The Willows”. Maybe that’s why my skepticism these days is tainted by beliefs in car-driving toads and talking moles and voles. You will notice I am being forthright here and avoiding weasel words.
As someone who was at TAM8 and attended the interview of Prof Dawkins, I would like to point out that although DJ Grothe was trying to corner Dawkins into saying odd things, Prof Dawkins did not indicate that he thought fantasy literature caused credulity. He said that he didn’t know and that a study on the matter would be enlightening.
Exactly my point, Bill – if he did suggest it, how could he suggest such a study start – and on what grounds does such a claim start anyway?
DJ Grothe asked if Dawkins thought there was a link between childhood fantasy literature and adult credulity. It was then that the conversation hit that topic as I described.
@ Bill,
So we can blame DJ then
My 6 year old has read all sorts, including his first couple of Potter books. He’s going to read them at school, or after-school care, so why fight it? If one wants to prevent kids reading fantasy, there’s going to be very little left by the time you exclude everything from Thomas the talking train through to balrogs.
It’s fascinating to see agenticity at work – the drive to believe in controlling powers – but I take his excitement in reading these books as an opportunity to get him thinking and talking about what’s real and what’s not.
And when it comes down to it, I’m stoked that he enjoys reading.
Bill, etc, here is a link where RD first speculates as to the harm of Harry Potter. As I understand it from TAM, Grothe was just following on what RD said earlier at the press conference.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/3255972/Harry-Potter-fails-to-cast-spell-over-Professor-Richard-Dawkins.html
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