Funny about the timing of this post – I had someone ask me about this over dinner at Dragon*Con on the last night, and I think I surprised them with how I trotted out my answer. It’s because I had an email written about it quite some time ago, which I’ll now publish here.
Today, after having someone send me audio (very obnoxious recording of people clearly under the influence) and after having someone embarrass someone else (and in the process, failed to embarrass me with their behaviour, which I think was their original intention) whilst they were ‘in their cups’, I guess the timing is apt.
I feel sorry for those who don’t speak out about this issue, because, personally? I’m not afraid to. Especially when it comes to professionalism and how being under the influence of alcohol influences how you’re seen.
Dear X,
Since you responded with ‘what’s your problem?’ I thought I might clarify what the problem actually is.
When I’m at an event, whether it be a community, private, large function or my being cornered in the kitchen by you holding a glass full of something toxic-looking – it’s my decision as to whether I drink alcohol or not.
I choose not to drink alcohol. I’ve never been drunk; I’ve never had much more than half a glass of wine in total in my life. Those times I have sipped alcohol have years between those times. Sipping one sip of a glass of champagne is probably about as ‘into the spirits’ as I get – and even then, it’s a ’social gesture’. I abandon my glass or pass it onto someone else to have as fast as possible.
Alcohol really doesn’t interest me. It smells disgusting. I can smell it from about forty centimeters away, sometimes further. I’m surprised more people don’t talk about that.
It tastes revolting, it smells worse on the breath of other people if they are close to me and I fear people who drink too much. I’ve seen injury, I’ve had friends attacked, I’ve had friends permanently scarred (a relative after he was assaulted) and I’ve had people disappear from my association altogether because of the drugs they chose to make their ‘poison’. People get taken advantage of, more than they take advantage of others, in my experience.
I appreciate the artistry of wine labels, the marketing and names chosen, the history and the families who have devoted generations to creating a good product. I’ve enjoyed touring wineries in the South-West of my state and know that the process of creating decent alcohol is both a science and somewhat of an art. I’ve seen documentaries, talked to people who work in the industry and quite like that there’s university courses in things like Plant Biology that continue improving the quality of said products.
That’s where it should end. More often than not, it doesn’t end there.
Over the years, I’ve been told that:
1) I’m un-Australian. The cultural pressure to drink is one that has significant ramifications. There’s been a growth in government-sponsored advertising that criticises the ‘have a tinny’ and ’social drinking’ stereotypes that have supposedly become an ‘Australian way of life’. Alcohol-abuse and misuse contributes to road-deaths, violence in the home, violence in public venues and a variety of other crimes.
Alcohol has contributed to the problem of declining Aboriginal conditions in this country. Perhaps it has ramifications in other countries too, but there is enough of a concern in general (certainly not just with the indigenous population, which I should point out from that article, is only 2.5 percent of the 21 million population of this country), that the Australian government decided to do something about it:
The National Alcohol Strategy 2006-2009 was developed as a response to the patterns of high risk alcohol consumption that are prevalent in Australia. Each year approximately 3,100 people die as a result of excessive alcohol consumption and around 72,000 people are hospitalised. With the annual cost to the Australian community of alcohol-related social problems estimated to be $7.6 billion.
Kind of makes you wonder what’s so admirably Australian about it all.
Yet, it is seen as anti-Australian. I’m not ‘giving it a fair go’. I’m ‘not being a mate’ unless I partake in a round. It’s apparently ’shocking’ if I shout someone a drink… and then choose something non-alcoholic for myself. Which usually leads to:
2) I must think I’m better than you. Clearly my choice about what I want to do with my body is a judgment about what you do with yours.
My life clearly must hinge on getting some sort of cosmic ‘point-scoring’ on a league table somewhere about decisions revolving around who has more friends, who got with more sexual partners, who is thinner, who is curvier, who got more Facebook followers, who’s best buddies with some science blogger who boasts to unimpressed kids that they ‘know Richard Dawkins‘, who gets assorted body parts out more and for whom and when… and the consumption of legal and illegal drugs must be a part of that greater tally of all ultimate-showdown-of-hearing-the-voices-over-one’s-own perception-of-awesomeness.
Thankfully I’m firmly convinced that there doesn’t exist a greater being who really gives a sod – or that anything we or others do as individuals will ever really be as attention-grabbing or as universally popular as footage of kittens on YouTube.
Which kind of puts all of that into perspective somewhat. But still, my decision is a gigantic snub in the direction of your lifestyle. I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle. Because it appears to be mine, and not yours and will remain that way.
3) Woman are called uptight unless they drink. Really. This appears to be a significant element that isn’t talked about much. I illustrated it with the example of Marion in Raiders of the Lost Ark. She is ‘cool’ because she can ‘hold her own’.
Women are supposedly no fun unless they are holding a glass of something. They’re not getting into the ’spirit of the evening’, unless they’re imbibing – usually as much as possible of those high-octane fruit-coloured attractive bottles, it seems. I’ve even been told that it’s downright anti-feminist to not be able to ‘match drinks with the boys’ or do a few drinking games. Because apparently my status as a woman and being respected by other women, particularly if I am being promoted as a role-model for the next generation, might require excessive alcohol consumption… or maybe not. As I said before, why am I suddenly the judge ‘who is better‘?
4) I’ve not developed a tolerance and I should work on it. The word ‘tolerate’ appears to me to be a word used in conjunction with ’suffering’. You have to ’suffer this’. You have to go through the motions, you have to build up your resilience. This is a rite of passage for some undefined reason and getting as much alcohol into oneself as possible is part of some sort of journey towards…
…sod knows what because usually by then someone has their head down the toilet or is missing an eyebrow or is being hefted off the couch and into a taxi and is calling me the next day to ask why there are photos online that they don’t remember being taken. Okay, sure, that hasn’t been the experience that I’ve observed every time I’m in the company of people who drink alcohol. But it’s happened more than once and more than once was enough.
There’s been a few cases where the only thing I can drink at a venue was water, because although the host said that there are soft-drinks, some generous person has decided that pouring alcohol into all of the drinks is the best way to ‘maintain the party spirit’. It even happened at Dragon*Con, to my mild irritation. Even after all these years, people just don’t think about those who don’t drink.
I’ve had my drink spiked three times – but because I can smell it easily enough, I knew what had happened. In one incidence, walked out of the venue after discovering that and I certainly wasn’t impressed by the shrug of the host when I told them about it when it happened.
I’ve had students say that it was a relief to know that some adults can say no. I remember a government-sponsored alcohol education program which talked about how there are in fact more people than we realise who will stand around with a glass – and when no one is looking, will tip half onto the lawn or into a spare glass left behind and avoid actually drinking as much as you might think they do. We can fake it, rather than ‘work on it’.
Yet, as I demonstrated with the champagne example, it’s damned difficult not to ‘charge a glass’ when everyone else around you is and will look at you funny if you don’t. You’re openly refusing to toast when you do that. You’re denying a celebration – because the celebration apparently must center around drinking alcohol to fulfill the required unification of the gathering or some such rubbish. Tolerate it. You have to – everyone else is.
Everyone except me, it seems. And those people who remain silent but stand rather close to the plant display, flick most of their glass into the soil rather than drink the thing and then adequately mimic a slightly buzzed-out demeanor for the rest of the night to avoid anyone giving them a refill. Done that myself during my earlier years.
Maybe I thought that those earlier years weren’t as useful as they could have been when it came to standing up for myself as an individual. But at least in retrospect, I can see what factors led me to make that choice.
I choose not to drink alcohol. It is not your problem. But if you have a problem with it, maybe you should think about why.
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{ 40 comments }
Kudos!
I’m especially surprised by the “anti-feminist” argument since alcohol is traditionally used to separate people from their knickers.
My wife feels much the way you do, but enjoys that half a glass (or less) of good wine. I realized at some point (boys must be slower to catch onto these things) that many of the bad things that had happened to me were directly related to an overindulgence in alcohol consumption. I enjoy it, but now pretty much limit it to wine and beer and in social situations only. I actually like beer and like to try new and different fancy brews with certain friends. But the expense of them lends to limiting intake and taking your time enjoying rather than pounding away in an effort to “get trashed.”
I think my eyes were opened in college wen I befriended a guy who was a “headbanger” (follower of heavy metal bands) who certainly looked like a guy who would enjoy “partying” but was diabetic and avoided all alcohol and drugs. He never made excuses or stories when offered anything. He just said no, thanks and that was it.
Good for you!
For the record, let me state that if I ever get to hang out with you I will gladly enjoy it no matter what you choose to have in your glass. I’ve always had great fun with people whether they are drinking or not.
I can’t figure out why people who drink get so worked up about people who don’t drink. Friday night at Dragon*Con, when you guys joined us at O’Fallon’s for the Skeptic Parents Night Out, you happened to be the third person in the group not drinking. Neither Laurie nor Heidi drink either. I know for a fact (’cause I’m lucky enough to be married to her) that Laurie will happily toast someone with a glass of Diet Coke.
Unfortunately, a couple of the guys at the far end of our table that night at O’Fallon’s thought nothing of “playfully” picking on Heidi after she mentioned that she doesn’t drink.
People like that need to get over it already. I don’t think anyone (even those guys at the other end of the table) went home thinking, “Man, this would’ve been so much more fun if Kylie, Laurie, and Heidi had been drinking… They just ruined my whole night…”
I’d love to see their reaction if someone used the same tactics on them if they mentioned that they don’t like… Oh, I dunno… Asparagus…
“You don’t eat asparagus?? You’re Un-Australian / Un-American / Un-Egyptian / whatever…!!”
“So you think you’re better than me because you don’t eat asparagus???”
“You’re just going to be so uptight unless you have some asparagus like the rest of us!!”
“You just haven’t built up a tolerance to asparagus — you should work on that!”
“Come on.. All the cool people are having asparagus…”
(The asparagus peer pressure groups are ruthless!)
Honestly, it’s a discussion that Laurie and I have had before — a big movement in skepticism right now is Skeptics in the Pub / Drinking Skeptically. It’s great that we have a model for getting together, but we feel like two potentially downsides are coming from this…
1. People feel excluded because they might not want to go to a bar once a month to gather with other skeptics. Even if they drink, some people don’t like bars. That’s why we’re having a kid-friendly Skeptics in the Park” next weekend in Louisville, at a local fossil bed!
2. From the outside, the growing skeptical movement could be viewed as nothing more than a bunch of people who were looking for an excuse to get together to drink, and that hurts our credibility.
So long as the pub-scene is only one aspect of growing skepticism locally and globally, it’s not a problem. We need to make sure that those who are looking up to us realize that it’s not the only outlet we have.
For example, at Dragon*Con, I happened to only drink beer on Friday. Not by any conscious decision; that’s just how it worked out. Did I have less fun on Saturday or Sunday??? Not bloody likely…
To me it’s bizarre that anyone over the age of 18 thinks there’s something wrong with not drinking. And I say this as someone who does drink.
I hope I’m not keeping you up in the wee hours even more! But your accusers are a ridiculous! Like, really, I laughed.
Personally, I drink. But never have I thought that anyone who prefers not to drink is ‘Un-whatever’, uptight, or less of a person. As with Mike, I’ve usually have fun with people, whether or not either party is drinking…
Good luck handling the situation… I guess it can be tough to ignore sometimes.
Excellent post, Kylie.
As another person who doesn’t drink, yet as of a different generation with different social pressures, I also find it annoying when I’m repeatedly asked why I don’t drink. However, I’m lucky in that my social group is not one of the “party teen” types, so I’m rarely in a situation where I’m being pressured to consume alcohol.
My main reason for not drinking is the taste aspect – I was once offered some random cocktail at a party recently, which I was assured was a (quote) “girly drink”, in that it was one of the more sugary cocktails. I decided to at least try a little bit, as other people seem to be enjoying them. I can’t say I was surprised when it tasted like pure alcohol, even though everyone else who was drinking them complained that “it was far too sweet”. These were the same people who were a little bit later doing shots of vodka as part of a card game. Seriously, wtf?
The other reason for not consuming is the mental acuity factor. I’m the kind of person who gets easily spaced out, so I’m not comfortable drinking something that will make me less attentive to what’s going on around me. I think this is partially the same reasoning George Hrab uses to justify his non-drinking – the desire to not negatively affect your thinking processes at any time is very strong in him and me.
I think I’ll link to this article on Facebook – I’m sure a few of my friends could get something out of it.
I’m a colossal drunkard, but I am also annoyed at the DRINK DRINK DRINK mentality. I got drunk last weekend and got yelled at for not drinking ENOUGH. Annoying.
In the USA, sports venues have family sections without drinking, but it can sometimes be some small, off to the side place that reminds me of “separate but equal” drinking fountains. Again, I like drinking, so it’s not me suffering. Just saying I can empathize.
The book “Drink: A Social History of America” is a must read on the topic of alcohol in the USA. It would be an interest book from the Australia perspective too.
Yeah Kylie! I don’t drink either, and whenever someone asks why, I tell them Asians don’t have the enzyme to digest alcohol. Racial stereotypes work in my favour
I’d like to point out another reason not to drink- it’s an expensive habit. I’d rather spend that money on books, or shoes.
My family seems to forget that my health suffers greatly when I drink. As a result they keep offering and I keep refusing. Other than that, nobody seems to care that I don’t drink.
Perhaps if I attended more of the events you are talking about I would feel as you do. Social gatherings at D*C were mostly outside “welcome zone” and I have never had a desire to attend the parties at TAM. I do not usually have time to attend local events, so I really don’t know if people would treat me differently or not. I do know this: If they somehow think I would be a nicer person or more fun to be around, they’re wrong. All one needs to do to get me to loosen up is to make me feel welcome.
I DO drink, but I DO understand what you are saying Kylie! I’ve seen interactions or been in groups where such interactions take place, meaning the ‘why aren’t you drinking’ or ‘just try this one, you’ll like it’ kind of conversations. Sometimes they are done in jest or as part of bantering conversations, like the ‘Ford is better then Holden’ or ‘why don’t you like footy’ conversations, but sometimes they are the more intimidating variety too. I usually enter into these with ‘why are we having this conversation?’ or ‘what does it matter if someone drinks or doesn’t drink?’ questions (I can’t help myself – I’m a philosopher!!!). Usually if a drinker makes this comment it seems to have more persuasive power than the non-drinker who seems to be cornered into needing to justify their decision.
I empathise with non-drinkers who experience this – not because of my choice to drink (not ALL alcohol – but I enjoy the taste of good Tennessee Whiskey, a good wine, or a good beer) – but because I experience the same thing as a vegetarian (mostly – but I do succumb to some seafood so thus I am better described as vegetarian and occasional pescatarian). How often it is I get invited to dinner or a B-B-Q and all dishes are meat (even when I mention my taste preferences). There is the usual very small range of salad, but of the meat eater variety – lettuce, tomatoes and maybe coleslaw! I usually need to bring my own, but I need to announce to everyone that this is my meal in case one of the meat eaters decides that they might try it too as an addition to their already plentiful range of meat dishes.
But the main comparison comes from having to continually justify why I am a vegetarian. The assumption usually is that I’m a ‘moral vegetarian’. In this case I need to justify my case with a solid argument it seems. It seems I offend some people that I am able to have am ethical viewpoint on eating meat if I cannot come up with a water-tight, iron-clad philosophical position for my ethical position or with scientific evidence to back up some of my empirical claims re: overindulgence in meat. But the fact is that my first and foremost reason for not eating meat is that I don’t like the taste of meat or the smell of cooking meat (I can smell meat like some people who are sensitive to alcohol). But then I get questions like ‘how can you not like meat?’ When I tell these people that I eat seafood sometimes it seems to make them feel better that I’m at least not some way to being a meat-eater, and thus make the meat-eater feel better about themselves.
The issue of taste preferences goes beyond drinking, or the meat or not meat debate. This harassment happens in all walks of life simply because people can’t tolerate people having different beliefs and practices, even when these beliefs and practices don’t impinge on others. For example, as a philosopher I don’t take seriously things like horoscopes, but I read them daily on facebook. Some days they line up with how I’m feeling and I intuitively act in accordance with what is said. When I mention this to some of my more philosophically or sceptically inclined colleague I become the brunt of the ‘you should know better’ remarks. Many take intellectual offense at this. But how and why I choose to make personal decisions that have no dire consequences on others (like drinking, being vegetarian, or reading horoscopes) is my personal choice.
Kylie’s comment about people who talk about developing a tolerance for alcohol is correct – people should NOT have to ‘try hard’ so that somehow with enough effort we either ‘acquire a taste’ or ‘learn to handle the taste and effects’ of alcohol. But in the case of accepting that people have preferences to not drink alcohol or meat, or to read horoscopes, people should ‘try hard’ or ‘make an effort’ to not convert those with differing beliefs and practices (that do not have harmful effects on others) to their way of thinking!
gIL
I have felt very rare pressure to drink within the skeptical community, but perhaps it is because I am so firm in the beginning that my family history of alcoholism has been the reason I do not drink. Although, I have had people convince me that I am most likely to not be an alcoholic.
I did however, have a friend at Dragon Con who said about me, and this is after I spent lots of time and money on a party for my friends, that no one should have allowed the non-drinker to buy the alcohol. Ok then. You are welcome! (Clearly this was not the guests of honor, who are amazing and wonderful of course!)
Next time I’m in WA can I hang out with you. Protium’s place is bad for my liver.
But seriously, I applaud your email and your stance.
I have as much fun with alcohol or without – I can get outrageously silly without touching a drop. I use wine for flavoring(cooking), and will drink beer and wine socially, my real addiction though, is diet coke – which is funny when you have smokers and drinkers saying “too much of that stuff will give you cancer”.
I don’t know if I would be as polite or as well thought out as you – last time somebody said I should cut back on my caffeine intake I had an irresistible urge to tell them to f*ck off.
Yes, sorry Sean, tying you up and forcing you to drink beer is very bad of me
@Kylie. I think we had a brief conversation about drinking at the SZ dinner. I wish I hated the taste of it. Good on you for making your position clear.
Wow – this post has suddenly shot my blog-views into the thousands, rather than the 500s where it usually sails… thanks for commenting, people!
I wish I can easily say, as I do with friends often, that it’s ‘just a rare occurrence’. However, as I hope I make clear in the post – it’s not really with close friends where this tension occurs. It’s just in general, in casual get-together scenarios and it did happen again at D*C, in various different places. It just kind of… escapes people’s attention more often than not. Oh, a bunch of bottles on the table? All of them contain alcohol in some form or another. What, not even a bottle of water? Fine, for the next few hours, I end up twiddling a bottle-cap, wondering if it would seem REALLY weird if I left and returned with a cup of water… if everyone would think I was making a comment about them if I did. *sigh*
Nor is this a judgment about those who do drink – as someone on Facebook snapped in regards to how they felt THEY were the ones being lectured to about their choice to drink. It’s a two-way street and I’m certain that there’s plenty of people who feel like they’ve been criticised for their choice to drink.
It’s just that I rarely hear the ‘other side’ – which is my side. That I chose not to and why. I remember, Naontiotami, that I said to George Hrab that I envied how he apparently rarely faces the same ‘pressure’ that Australians (and to some extent, those in the UK) do. Whilst he also gets the assumption that maybe it’s due to a problem with alcohol that he chooses not to drink (there’s been a few times that people assume that I’m avoiding alcohol due to health reasons), he doesn’t get the same overall cultural pressure that we do in Australia.
Nice skeptical angle on the topic!
Spiking drinks is unconscionable. ..
I personally enjoy a few drinks at social gatherings and Skeptics in the Pub events, but I drink about as rarely as I eat meat. Once a month or so. Not through diligent avoidance, but out of forgetful disinterest.
I do think you’ve highlighted a very salient cultural value in Australia. Aussies who don’t drink are subject to peer pressure, and are generally made to feel as though they are “wowsers” or Un-Australian. “Teetotaller” itself has connotations of prudishness. There may be no real connection, but these are stereotypes.
In no way is this perspective as rampant in the States. The US has a history of Prohibition and this may have given rise to a general ambivalence about to drink or not to drink. Most people out my way are happier with a chai latte or other hippie drink.
Oddly enough, when I don’t drink I’m oblivious to what others may think. Who cares? You shouldn’t.
It’s not just an Aussie/UK thing, for what it’s worth– I’ve encountered this same sort of attitude in a college town in the States. It’s… so frustrating. Particularly when, as in some of the cases you mention, people don’t even consider that someone might want something non-alcoholic or even caffeinated at a social event.
Even when I explain that I’m the sort who gets incredibly spacey and even more introverted than usual after drinking, people sometimes still don’t get it…
I didn’t mind being tied Protium
I hear where you are coming from. My husband’s a non-drinker and some of our friends *still* don’t get it, even after a decade! It’s worse with the Bogan aspects of my own family.
I just got my Ps, which as you know here in WA, now means a 0.0 BAC reading if I get asked to blow into a BAC reader. Yet I still have friends and relatives trying to get me to drink when they know I don’t want to because I want to be able to drive anytime I want. Aparently their desire to get their own way overrides the possiblity of me losing my hard-earned driver’s license.
Word up. I don’t drink anymore because of health and medication reasons. But I used to enjoy a little bit. I have never drank the huge amounts other people do, though, and have been called lightweight and so forth. I always look at it like this: Alcohol is imbibed to lower inhibitions. I don’t have any inhibitions. Those I do have are for reasons of being socially acceptable and considered a civil human being. I can have plenty of fun without alcohol in my system, and I love waking up the next day NOT chemically hungover.
It’s a bummer not being able to leave it at that, isn’t it? I know how you feel. Except, I’m such a weird person that people assume I’m drunk anyway at parties.
This is a thing that ticks me off. No-one is obligated to do something they don’t want so someone else can feel better about their choice.
(Got here from Hoyden About Town, who linked you!)
It’s their self-loathing about their habit that makes them start lecturing in some cases, and a terror of being judged, since in the US, the UK, and Australia, there’s still a whiff of that old Puritan spirit (okay, it’s not very small in the US, where people simply *love* to judge!), and drinking is seen as “sinful” on some level (like sex and eating cream-filled pastries). Someone who doesn’t drink has resisted the lure of demon alcohol, so the lecture can’t be far behind.
Sadly, this rots up the evening for the 90% of us who just want to do our own thing without judging anyone else. I don’t drink because of interesting medication interactions, and anyone who tries to make me drink is told they’ll be helping me clean the puke off the bathroom floor. That tends to stop them in their tracks.
The other alternative is ginger ale with ice in a glass, which looks like a number of drinks, and no-one can tell the difference.
Well, now you’ve gone and opened a can – of worms that is. I had too much to say for a comment so I blogged my views – skeptical drinking?
Since I’ve linked to you, I expect your pageviews will rocket by one or two more readers.
Well said. If I still lived in Perth, we could have started a “Sceptics NOT in the Pub”.
Thanks for this! While it sucks that this attitude is so prevalent, it’s wonderful to see my feelings so concisely laid out by someone else.
I drink a little, about as much as you describe–maybe a small glass of wine if I’m in the mood for it, but never anything stronger. I never understood the attraction of being drunk, but don’t begrudge others the right to do that to themselves. As long as they don’t dump the responsibility for caring for them while drunk on me, without warning me first (another danger of being known as “the sober one”).
I applaud your choice Kylie. I’d be interested to hear how you feel about The Think Tank as part of SZ.
Personally, I find myself under some degree of peer pressure because I don’t drink coffee. Men ordering peppermint tea is not a “good look” apparently
Kylie, at that very moment when you were partying but not drinking with us at D*Con, my son in Melbourne was driving his car while drunk, and has lost his licence for 2 years. So – @Purrdence – hang in there.
Since drinking is a voluntary act, the question cannot be “why don’t you drink” but it must be “why DO you drink?” And if they were asked that, most drinkers would have difficulty explaining why they do it. It is hard to find an excuse, one finally says “Because I want to”. The onus is on them to explain – not on you to explain why you don’t!
I do drink alcohol, because I appreciate the acquired taste of fine wines, but this is an option I have chosen and there are many things that I could also appreciate that I do not ingest or inhale. And I would not tolerate being asked why I don’t do those things. Why don’t I smoke, for example. Why should I have to smoke? If people expect you to drink “to be sociable”, they have an unacceptable idea of what “sociable” means.
I have to admit, as a drinker, when I meet someone who does not drink, slight feelings of guilt and shame come to me. You should therefore have the opposite feelings, of pride and dignity.
Excellent question, Chris Sol! Thank you for asking it!
My feelings about the ‘Think Tank’ is something I did INDEED raise with Richard Saunders, early on in the creation of the Skeptic Zone podcast. I asked as to whether this was making a ’statement’, overt or not, about alcohol consumption being part of being a ’socially-acceptable skeptic’. I was skeptical… couldn’t help myself, I guess!
There are also examples within the rest of the show of social events, lectures, vox pop and the like, where alcohol consumption is absent. But I do see your point about how you can’t miss the ‘Think Tank’ and how it is in a licensed venue. It’s as obvious as the bus announcements that bookend every session!
So, in that vein, I would direct such a question first and foremost to Richard Saunders as the SZ producer – as the creator, main innovator and editor, somewhat-Svengali and long-term friend and co-worker. He has the final say over the content of the show. So, I’ll bring this to his attention after I’ve said my part.
You’re absolutely right about how yes, you can hear glasses clinking in the course of an average episode which features the ‘Think Tank’; people saying ‘cheers’ and there have been jokes about champagne and the infamous ‘first episode’ where some hostess popped past and gave everyone at the SZ table a free Boag’s beer. You can’t miss it.
In short and in my opinion – I would say that the show’s drawing on the tradition of the ‘Skeptics in the Pub’ and ‘Drinking Skeptically’ (particularly the first, which has its origins with an Australian), doesn’t equal in the slightest irresponsible or intoxicated states ‘to be a skeptic / rationalist / et al’. The content rather than the ‘drinking’ is in fact intended to be the focus.
You’re not going to get loud, lairy, aggressive or offensive behaviour in a ‘Think Tank’, because that is not how Richard Saunders or the SZ team conduct themselves professionally. I like to think we’re being professional with our podcast. I think we are just as much turned-off as anyone when there are people being more about their enjoyment than the listening audience!
You won’t find people judging how much people drink during the episode, or what they drink. There is precedence in the show to how the participants will respect what you choose to drink, which I’ve experienced myself. The ‘Drinking Skeptically’ site has such a disclaimer.
In a more long-winded vein: I have taken part in a total of four ‘Think Tanks’. The main reason you won’t hear me in them is mostly because of the distance. I live about as far as San Fran is from New York. I’ve done two (rather technically difficult and ultimately too awkward logistically to maintain my presence) regular ‘Think Tank’ sessions over Skype; one in Melbourne at the YAS get-together, and one in Auckland, New Zealand (which will be an upcoming episode).
During all of those, I think in one you can hear me say ‘I raise my orange juice’ (whether that got through editing, I’m not sure). In the Auckland one, I did avoid making the overt link to alcohol consumption, because although it was in a pub, I was more interested in ‘what people had to say’. That, as I said before, is kind of the ‘key’ to the ‘Think Tank’.
As my blog post is intended to indicate as well – I’m not saying that my not-drinking is therefore saying that “The ‘Think Tank’ is therefore beneath my regard – far from it. People who do the ‘Think Tank’ are adults, in a licensed venue, with a clear focus and intent to communicate rationally rather than be about the drinking.
In fact, the one time a young person did take part in the ‘Think Tank’, (Naontiotami, of the YAS podcast) – he is a non-drinker like myself and was naturally being supervised. As a former high school teacher (and as you might guess, surrounded by his friends who care greatly for him), there was no chance that we’d be putting him in an awkward situation. I’d be one of the first to stand up for him if he was being ‘bullied’ in such a case, and I’d do the same for others – not that I’d think that the people I like to associate with would ever do that. I avoid those who would.
I would say that’s the overall emphasis of the ‘Think Tank’, really. ‘What rational people have to say about this world that has these contradictions which challenge rational living’. I would say that yes, Richard Saunders (as the producer and the person with the final say) is drawing on the tradition of the ‘Skeptics in the Pub’ and the ‘Drinking Skeptically’ (as he says in the upcoming live show, he was one of the first to establish one in Australia – that man is really a miracle of innovation) and the show isn’t ashamed of that.
I hope that’s an answer of sorts… whether you’d find it satisfactory, I don’t know? I do know that when I was given the chance to conduct a ‘Think Tank’, I pretty much excised the ‘raise your glasses’ element altogether as irrelevant in my view. I am, however, not the producer of the Skeptic Zone show, and I defer to Richard Saunders as the ultimate final-say – and I trust his judgement in not making fellow skeptics uncomfortable or out-of-step in a world that already has quite a lot of out-of-step things for us.
Oh, I should add – our show is run by adults – I have suggested to the ‘younger demographic’ podcast the Young Australian Skeptics that they might consider doing some skeptically-themed non-alcoholic drinks? But then, their show is brill as it is (do check them out!).
In my ever so humble opinion the only people deserving of criticism and being put down and given a hard time are the ones who in all the cases mentioned above have given grief to those who choose not to drink alcohol/eat meat/whatever. I say this of course as a proud coffee addict, carnivore and alcoholic.
I have given people grief in the past myself for such things, but only to those who are already close friends and I know will see anything said the way it is intended – with my tongue planted firmly in cheek. To do such things to someone you don’t know so well could very easily be misinterprated and taken badly as has clearly been done here, inspiring you to write this piece, and really was quite rude on their behalves.
I don’t drink, I might have finished two drinks in my entire 34 years on the planet. My husbands joke about getting me drunk one day because they think I’d be funny, and I respond that they don’t need me to be drunk to be silly, that’s my natural state. I get offered sips of drinks because, “maybe you’ll like this one”, which I rarely do.
I am very sensitive to alcohol, the taste and the smell, and don’t want it in my life, though am sometimes envious of the joy that some people have in drinking wine (and coffee).
Just about everyone I know doesn’t pressure me to drink, call me un-Australian, or even care. Once I explain that I don’t like the taste or the smell they leave me alone. The boys rarely bother me about it, and it usually comes up at cocktail parties where they wish I could enjoy the concoction they’ve just made.
I’m happy to not drink, and that’s my stance.
Drink if you like, don’t if you like. If this is a worry for you then start Skeptics in the Park and have your own show.
We meet in a club as it’s a nice place to meet. We also have dinner there. I call it ‘Drinking Skeptically’ in the Think Tank as it sounded funny. The last Think Tank we did we were drinking water, but we may drink whatever we like from coke to beer to whatever. I never ask anyone to drink if they are a non-drinker. It’s not my business.
And there we have it, ladies and gentlemen – from Richard Saunders himself.
Hope that answers any other questions on how the Skeptic Zone does it? 
Did the Skeptics in the Pub originate in the UK? From what I have heard from my sister, its generally so bloody miserable weather wise that the only place to go for good company and conversation is the pub.
Sean, if you listen to the Global Skepticism panel on episode #7 of the Skeptic Zone, you’ll hear that an Australian started it, in the UK!
I’m just glad Skeptics in the Pub didn’t start here in the U.S., because “Skeptics in the Bar” (or with my faded New England accent turned back on — “Skeptics in the Baaaah”) sounds awful compared to “Pub”. In my mind, a bar is where people go to pound down third-rate beer and get drunk. A pub is where friends go to meet, chat, and have a good time.
Oh, more blog entries (I am not alone!) can be found at Andy D’s site and at Atomacs – the latter has some more stats about the situation in this country.
@Richard Saunders, I hope you did not take offence at this and my question regarding the Think Tank. I have always particularly enjoyed the Think Tank – it is a generally jovial segment of the show, allowing a group of people to interact in an informal manner. It is (to me, as a listener) not at all about the drinking, but rather about the informality.
That being said, I had previously heard PodBlack’s concerns about promotion of alcohol consumption and, as she says above, how it can affect one’s public persona in a professional context. I had, therefore, wondered about her views of the Think Tank and had intended to ask her about it on several occasions (in particular on those relatively few occasions where she has participated in it). This seemed like the perfect opportunity.
As for Skeptics in the Park – sure, why not? Brian Dunning has his Skeptics in the Jeep. Sounds wonderful! I’m not suggesting you change your format. As you say, “have your own show”.
I think PodBlack has raised some very interesting and pertinent points in this entry. It got me thinking about my own consumption of alcohol. I drink occasionally and then maybe once or twice a year I have a “big night”. One such night was only a few weeks ago. I got home and felt the need to mention it on my Facebook. I woke in the morning and wondered “why did I do that?” (the Facebook bit, not the drinking). I could go on, but really, such a discussion would best be had face to face in a social setting, like, I dunno? A pub? Or maybe a park
Please keep up the excellent work you and all of the SZ team do. It is enjoyed and very much appreciated.
Cheers (irony intended),
Chris Sol
Thanks Chris
I’d always drink Root Beer!
Richard, if you will give me some lessons in succinctness and brevity, I’ll give you a few lessons in verbosity
Just to add a small point (lest I seem too brief) I think some of my “hang-ups” over pubs hark back to the days when there was more smoking than drinking therein. I’m not bothered by sober people drinking (unless the conversation is effectively quasi-religious reverence of the nectar) and the aroma doesn’t especially peeve me, but smoking is another matter.
I just found your blog doing a search for “responses to ‘why don’t you drink?’ after having attended a dinner party last night where I was asked that question. This isn’t the first time I’ve been asked this question (as all you other non-drinkers out there know), but I was just dumbstruck and tried to think up a clever answer. One of the hosts answered for me and said “for health reasons.”
I clearly didn’t find this satisfying, as here I am the next morning looking for a better stock response. I don’t see why non-drinkers should have to explain why we don’t drink, and found one suggested rejoinder of “why DO you drink?” which I think will be my answer the next time I am asked this incredibly rude and strange question.
I mean, no one asks “why do/don’t you like pecans?” or “why do/don’t you wear the color blue?” So why do people feel they need to comment on what one does or doesn’t ingest? It’s so rude! I guess it really gets to some defensiveness on the part of the drinker that they want some sort of reassurance that they’re normal/okay and the non-drinker has the problem. Perhaps they protest too much?
Thanks so much, Erica!
I ended up with quite a few people chatting on Twitter as well about it, and reflecting on the recent efforts to ban alcohol in public venues during the upcoming Australia Day celebrations. I have the ‘perhaps they protest too much’ notion raised too… one Tweeter wondered if it was a cognitive dissonance thing. At any rate, thanks for reviewing this post, it’s nice to know that it’s touching base with others out there!
Im an alcoholic
I am drinking now and I know it is damaging me physicaly and detrimentaly mentaly.
Thanks for your comments.You are inspiering me to come out of the closet about my dependence on getting out of my mind on things I cannot accept about myself.By now in my life the madness is the addiction.
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