On Facebook, Amazing Meeting presenter Margaret Downey posted a picture of a secular Jewish Bat Mitzvah. Penn Jillette responded with the following comments:
Oh dear. Are in favor of “cultural jews.” I mean, isn’t that just racism? I don’t get it.
I”m not kidding. This makes me very uncomfortable. I don’t see how pride in your ancestry is anything but racism. It’s all just tribalism. I’m fine with loving your family, but upholding traditions from people you don’t know personally seems insane and wrong. If you are interested in a culture, I’m fine with studying that culture, but if it’s tied to your birth I don’t get it. I’m proud to be part of the same race as Einstein and Sun Ra and that’s human. This kind of stuff is for religious people. This creeps me out.
I think pride in heritage is tribalism. And “pride” itself is racist. Be proud of being human. I’ve “unfriended” most of my cultural jew friends. Atheists who call themselves jews are really really creepy to me. I feel about all of this like I feel about “white pride.” F******* b******.
I had my own response and it began to build to several paragraphs… and then the computer crashed on me.
I think I was typing too hard or something.
What I will do is quote the following and maybe I’ll stop myself at some point during this busy day and try again. I don’t intend to just let Penn Jillette say this unchallenged. Feel free to add your own comments.
From ‘Racism? No Way’:
A person’s understanding of their own and others’ cultural identity develops from birth and is shaped by the values and attitudes prevalent at home and in the surrounding community. This identity becomes more complex and fluid over time as people develop allegiances to different groups within the broader society. At the same time, cultures themselves are not static but develop and change as the belief systems and ways of life of different groups adapt under other cultural influences including mass media and popular culture to create new identities. In a culturally diverse society like Australia, individuals may have multiple identities through identification with several different sub-cultures. These identities may include identity based on cultural heritage, family or birthplace; religious or social identity; and identity as members of Australian society.
The realisation that there are many Australian identities reinforces the need for mutual understanding for achieving a racism-free community. Reconciliation, which aims to encourage co-operation and improve relations between Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians and the wider community, is critical in this process. The understanding of how history has shaped our relationship with each other and respect for each other’s cultures are key components of the Reconciliation process.
The policy of multiculturalism is equally vital in achieving a cohesive Australian nation. It recognises and values Australia’s cultural and linguistic diversity and accepts and respects the right of all Australians to express and share their individual cultural heritage within an overriding commitment to Australia.
The mistrust and fear of difference which often stem from isolation from other cultures can be overcome by fostering cultural understanding and by highlighting the common interests that all Australians share. Working together, Australians can achieve a more equal and fairer society that respects and values its diversity.
In “Modern Judaism An Oxford Guide,” Yaakov Malkin, Professor of Aesthetics and Rhetoric at Tel Aviv University and the founder and academic director of Meitar College for Judaism as Culture in Jerusalem, writes:
Secular Jewish culture embraces literary works that have stood the test of time as sources of aesthetic pleasure and ideas shared by Jews and non-Jews, works that live on beyond the immediate socio-cultural context within which they were created. They include the writings of such Jewish authors as Sholem Aleichem, Itzik Manger, Isaac Bashevis Singer, Philip Roth, Saul Bellow, S.Y. Agnon, Isaac Babel, Martin Buber, Isaiah Berlin, Haim Nahman Bialik, Yehuda Amichai, Amos Oz, A.B. Yehoshua, and David Grossman. It boasts masterpieces that have had a considerable influence on all of western culture, Jewish culture included – works such as those of Heinrich Heine, Gustav Mahler, Leonard Bernstein, Marc Chagall, Jacob Epstein, Ben Shahn, Amedeo Modigliani, Franz Kafka, Max Reinhardt (Goldman), Ernst Lubitsch, and Woody Allen.
If you’re trying to calm down like I am? Have a look around sites like Building Jewish Bridges, Secular Student Alliance, Harvard Humanists, The Shalom Institute in Australia, Secular Jewish culture … or even one of my favorite sites that illustrates how diversity and drawing upon cultural backgrounds is fascinating and educational – ‘Sounds Familar’ – different accents and dialects in the UK.
{ 12 comments… read them below or add one }
I want to comment, but I have been putting off sleep for far too long. I will say for now, that I appreciate all of the links you provided in counterpoint to Gillette’s egregious error on heritage.
His attitude sounds very American white middle class culturally-Protestant Christian (even though he’s an atheist), where any traditions outside of his experience are considered “too ethnic”. It’s the same kind of myopia that causes such people (actually my people) to claim they “don’t see color” or that they have no ethnicity. I wonder if Jillette has ranted similarly about people following their family and cultural traditions at Christmas-time, even if they aren’t practicing Christians.
Having gone to the thread (response to the photo) in question – I noticed that Margaret Downey had an eventual favourable response to Penn – that should probably be discussed too.
What I didn’t like was how there was eventually a comment about ‘An atheist embracing & conducting religious rituals & rites & being proud to be part of an imaginary jewish, christian or muslim borderless nation while claiming to be secular is not rational.’
Someone else in response to the photo also wrote ‘If there is “a need for atheist and humanist celebrations” the last place somebody claiming to be secular should copy rituals from to embrace, endorse & repeat is from a backward, racist religion. Replace the word “Jew” with “Christian” and “Bat Miztvah” with “First Holy Communion” and see if you can believe an argument of it all being a secular event of cultural Christians. Anyone claiming to be secular who builds their life & identity upon religion shouldn’t be coddled & catered to, they should be laughed at & criticized.’
Sorry, it’s likely that we’re all going to be rational in the end? That laughter and criticism is really going to be the ‘turning point’ for people? Is it being suggested as the ‘best’ way to go about things?
Seems a rather demanding goal… but yes, as Peggy said, does Penn have much awareness of the loss of language, of the Stolen Generation, of the struggle that many people have had when their land and traditions have been attempted to be wiped out? It’s really not as easy as he thinks, quite frankly, to just say ‘well, consider yourself fortunate, you can now just embrace atheism and secularism and wipe out all of the “baggage” that you now won’t have to put up with’.
Margaret Downey’s eventual comments in response to Penn were:
“I totally get Penn after a good nights sleep. I must emphasize for those who were not at the celebration of Eve’s coming of age/Bat Mitzvah (Jewish word keep to appease grandma and grandpa — hey, being a gay couple with two children was difficult enough).
There was no reading of the Torah. Eve’s research project and presentation was the evidence provided that she has matured. Eve herself said that when she is asked who she is she says, “Just me–a Chinese born girl being raised by two secular Humanist Jewish men.”
Each poem, song and mini-speech invoked Eve’s humanism and only real world wording existed throughout the day. The grandparent’s hardly noticed because the event was so beautiful. …So, while I agree with Penn that tribalism and cultural pride is “Bullshit” I would say that there is possibly a need for atheist and humanist celebrations. Celebrations of this type include the conveying of knowledge (Eve’s project), acknowledgment of ancestral and expressions of love.”
and
“Anthropological studies show that ceremonies have existed throughout the ages. We atheists have truly evolved beyond prayers, god worship and dogma, but isn’t possible that celebrating life passages (birth, marriage, divorce, coming of age and death) is what it is to be human? I contend that reason and emotion can co-exist.
It is my experience as a Secular Officiant that when a couple/family creates their very own ceremony they are helping themselves (along with family and friends) acknowledge important decisions and life circumstances. These personal touches actually highlight meaning in one’s life. People have a difficult time expressing emotions so a ceremony creates an atmosphere that encourages and embraces expression. We all want to feel supported and loved so as long as a celebration is not obligatory or empty of sincere participation, I will be a part of it.
Thanks, Penn for making me think outside the box. You helped me articulate exactly why I started my business.”
I understand what Penn’s getting at, he’s just not convincing enough. I am proud, perhaps appreciative off my cultural background, but not to the point where I think it gives me a sense of superiority, that my tribe is better than another. At the same time I am proud of our achievements as a race, as well as the diverse array of species on the planet that have manged to evolve and survive (with) us
.
Penn just being Penn I think.
Yeah, but I’ve heard the ‘Penn Being Penn’ excuse WAAAY too often. And I’m certain he’s pretty sick of it as well, after looking at how he responded to the correspondents on Facebook. He means what he says. And so, I’ve pretty much given up on him and his opinions, which is a shame, but meh. :/ I doubt he gives a damn in return.
OK Podblack so what’s your point? Retype what you lost when your puter crashed and splain your Penn problem
Hi Procyan – today I ended up back at physio for continuing issues with overuse of the computer – so I hope you don’t mind a brief synopsis.
Margaret Downey said in her response to Penn that ‘reason and emotion can co-exist’. I don’t see enough support to conclude that there is harm in knowing where you came from and being able to talk with self-respect and personal worth, with it as a contributing factor. What really does contribute to racism? Is it as simple as ‘tribalism’?
I come from a country that has worked towards reconciliation with the original inhabitants – and there is still so much work to continue. Last year, I observed first-hand what loss of language, loss of loss of self-esteem and loss of identity can mean, after visiting a few remote communities north of my state. It was only for a brief time, but I’ve gone on to contribute to a larger study and think that it was an important part of knowing how to improve educational outcomes for people from different cultural backgrounds. It’s too large a factor to just dismiss with just scorn or derision – it also saddens me that Penn has lost friends over it, but I guess that’s his decision.
Does equating recognition of one’s culture with ‘racism’ mean that cultural days, holidays, sporting events, international festivals, the Olympics, venues that are maintained by diasporic groups, companies like the one my former boss works for which promotes the educational opportunities of people on a remote island that her parents came from, fundraisers for lands that need emergency help, environmental aid based on cultural interests and the like… are they all dumped too? And who’s really going to take on all of those – and think they’ll win?
Especially if they’re saying that they’re ‘not making friends’ on the way?
POOOOORRR POOOR Penn!
He’s ‘like the religious zealots who are BURDENED by their superiority with the sad DUTY of decrying the OBVIOUS moral decay of each new generation.”
http://xkcd.com/603/
What a load of rot. AND he’s too much of a snob to do interviews with the people who go to see them at the Amazing Meeting. Color me racist? Color me completely unimpressed.
Point taken. If he is getting sick of hearing it maybe there is a lesson in that for him – becoming more of a caricature of himself?
Ah well.
I think Mikca might have burst a blood vessel with all that pity-party though…
From “Avenue Q”
Princeton:
Say, Kate, can I ask you a question?
Kate Monster:
Sure!
Princeton:
Well, you know Trekkie Monster upstairs?
Kate Monster:
Uh huh.
Princeton:
Well, he’s Trekkie Monster, and you’re Kate Monster.
Kate Monster:
Right.
Princeton:
You’re both Monsters.
Kate Monster:
Yeah.
Princeton:
Are you two related?
Kate Monster:
What?! Princeton, I’m surprised at you! I find that racist!
Princeton:
Oh, well, I’m sorry! I was just asking!
Kate Monster:
Well, it’s a touchy subject.
No, not all Monsters are related.
What are you trying say, huh?
That we all look the same to you?
Huh, huh, huh?
Princeton:
No, no, no, not at all. I’m sorry,
I guess that was a little racist.
Kate Monster:
I should say so. You should be much more
careful when you’re talking about the
sensitive subject of race.
Princeton:
Well, look who’s talking!
Kate Monster:
What do you mean?
Princeton:
What about that special Monster School you told me about?
Kate Monster:
What about it?
Princeton:
Could someone like me go there?
Kate Monster:
No, we don’t want people like you-
Princeton:
You see?!
You’re a little bit racist.
Kate Monster:
Well, you’re a little bit too.
Princeton:
I guess we’re both a little bit racist.
Kate Monster:
Admitting it is not an easy thing to do…
Princeton:
But I guess it’s true.
Kate Monster:
Between me and you,
I think
Both:
Everyone’s a little bit racist
Sometimes.
Doesn’t mean we go
Around committing hate crimes.
Look around and you will find
No one’s really color blind.
Maybe it’s a fact
We all should face
Everyone makes judgments
Based on race.
Princeton:
Now not big judgments, like who to hire
or who to buy a newspaper from -
Kate Monster:
No!
Princeton:
No, just little judgments like thinking that Mexican
busboys should learn to speak goddamn English!
Kate Monster:
Right!
Both:
Everyone’s a little bit racist
Today.
So, everyone’s a little bit racist
Okay!
Ethinic jokes might be uncouth,
But you laugh because
They’re based on truth.
Don’t take them as
Personal attacks.
Everyone enjoys them -
So relax!
Princeton:
All right, stop me if you’ve heard this one.
Kate Monster:
Okay!
Princeton:
There’s a plan going down and there’s only
one paracute. And there’s a rabbi, a priest…
Kate Monster:
And a black guy!
Gary Coleman:
Whatchoo talkin’ ’bout Kate?
Kate Monster:
Uh…
Gary Coleman:
You were telling a black joke!
Princeton:
Well, sure, Gary, but lots of people tell black jokes.
Gary Coleman:
I don’t.
Princeton:
Well, of course you don’t – you’re black!
But I bet you tell Polack jokes, right?
Gary Coleman:
Well, sure I do. Those stupid Polacks!
Princeton:
Now, don’t you think that’s a little racist?
Gary Coleman:
Well, damn, I guess you’re right.
Kate Monster:
You’re a little bit racist.
Gary Coleman:
Well, you’re a little bit too.
Princeton:
We’re all a little bit racist.
Gary Coleman:
I think that I would
Have to agree with you.
Princeton/Kate Monster:
We’re glad you do.
Gary Coleman:
It’s sad but true!
Everyone’s a little bit racist -
All right!
Kate Monster:
All right!
Princeton:
All right!
Gary Coleman:
All right!
Bigotry has never been
Exclusively white
All:
If we all could just admit
That we are racist a little bit,
Even though we all know
That it’s wrong,
Maybe it would help us
Get along.
Princeton:
Oh, Christ do I feel good.
Gary Coleman:
Now there was a fine upstanding black man!
Princeton:
Who?
Gary Coleman:
Jesus Christ.
Kate Monster:
But, Gary, Jesus was white.
Gary Coleman:
No, Jesus was black.
Kate Monster:
No, Jesus was white.
Gary Coleman:
No, I’m pretty sure that Jesus was black-
Princeton:
Guys, guys…Jesus was Jewish!
Brian:
Hey guys, what are you laughing about?
Gary Coleman:
Racism!
Brian:
Cool.
Christmas Eve:
BRIAN! Come back here!
You take out lecycuraburs!
Princeton:
What’s that mean?
Brian:
Um, recyclables.
Hey, don’t laugh at her!
How many languages do you speak?
Kate Monster:
Oh, come off it, Brian!
Everyone’s a little bit racist.
Brian:
I’m not!
Princeton:
Oh no?
Brian:
Nope!
How many Oriental wives
Have you got?
Christmas Eve:
What? Brian!
Princeton:
Brian, buddy, where you been?
The term is Asian-American!
Christmas Eve:
I know you are no
Intending to be
But calling me Oriental -
Offensive to me!
Brian:
I’m sorry, honey, I love you.
Christmas Eve:
And I love you.
Brian:
But you’re racist, too.
Christmas Eve:
Yes, I know.
The Jews have all
The money
And the whites have all
The power.
And I’m always in taxi-cab
With driver who no shower!
Princeton:
Me too!
Kate Monster:
Me too!
Gary Coleman:
I can’t even get a taxi!
All:
Everyone’s a little bit racist
It’s true.
But everyone is just about
As racist as you!
If we all could just admit
That we are racist a little bit,
And everyone stopped being
So PC
Maybe we could live in -
Harmony!
Christmas Eve:
Evlyone’s a ritter bit lacist!
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